Renault: Electric motors with no rare earths

(renaultgroup.com)

126 points | by bestouff 2 hours ago

8 comments

  • willXare 1 hour ago
    "Replace the magnet with a controllable magnet" is probably the most automotive-engineering sentence possible.
    • pfannl 49 minutes ago
      Also known as: “we removed the rare earths and added software.”
      • Jblx2 37 minutes ago
        Synchronous motors: running on software since the 1880s. Nikola really was ahead of his time!
  • bgarbiak 1 hour ago
    BMW also makes rare-earths-free motors for their EVs and - at this very moment - theirs are far more advanced. They offer almost twice the power (up to 300kW vs 160kW) and are on a 800v architecture.
    • PedroBatista 58 minutes ago
      The cheapest EV model Renault sells is around €20K, the cheapest BMW EV is around €65K.

      It's safe to say the companies are not in the market bracket, no?

      • nine_k 31 minutes ago
        It's still good to know that SOTA is further, and we can expect the more advanced designs to seep into more affordable segments.
      • alephnerd 33 minutes ago
        They share the same OEMs, and both are following the same ex-China automotive strategy. Renault has also been thumbing China recently for undermining EU manufacturing as well [0]

        [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-asks-eu-enco...

  • delfugal 1 hour ago
    How soon to see rare-earth-free paired with CATL Sodium batteries? Seems a price war, range war is imminent.
    • cogman10 53 minutes ago
      Could be wrong, but AFAIK the CATL Sodium batteries haven't yet hit LFP pricing.

      You are unlikely to see a vehicle with sodium batteries until after that happens, and it needs to be significantly less than LFPs as you Na batteries have more weight per Wh. I believe they also have a shorter lifespan (but not NMC short). Edit correction, looks like CATL is promising 15000 cycles, which is much longer than LFPs which usually come in at 7000 to 10000.

      It seems far more likely to me that if the Na prices tank, you'll probably first see them deployed as grid and home battery solutions.

      • Manuel_D 26 minutes ago
        The energy density of LFP batteries are also 30-50% higher than sodium based battery chemistries. Even if sodium battery prices drop, the lower energy density is a big disadvantage. My understanding is that sodium batteries are aimed at stationary use-cases, like battery buffers for fast charging.
      • MaKey 39 minutes ago
        One of the most interesting features of sodium batteries is that they still perform good in cold temperatures.
        • cromka 25 minutes ago
          And high temperatures, too. Meaning they don't require cooling nor heating, basically matching the per kg capacity of ready modules with LFP while being significantly safer and less complex.
      • gpm 20 minutes ago
        They're promising to start selling a Qiyuan A06 variant with Sodium batteries sometime this year... so if you went looking you could probably see one... or will be able to soon.
      • nine_k 32 minutes ago
        Looks ideal for a power wall at home.
      • AtlasBarfed 27 minutes ago
        Superior temperature range in cold weather as well IIRC.
    • alephnerd 1 hour ago
      Unlikely.

      EESMs are primarily manufactured by European OEMs (ZF, MAHLE, Schaffler, AEM) and their Indian JV partners (Sona Comstar, Sterling, and the India branches of the OEMs listed). Both have been blocked via export controls from accessing battery tech from China over the past few years, and a major reason for the push for EESMs was for an ex-China supply chain, especially after China began export controlling rare earths to the EU [6].

      Additonally, Chinese and American EVs tend to use PMSMs unlike European and now Indian EVs. Also, the EU is cracking down on automotive exports (cars and OEMs) from non-FTA states as part of the EU Industrial Accelerator Act (which btw has made China go ballistic [2][3][4][5]).

      On the other hand, they will most likely use Japanese or Korean solid-state batteries as Idemetsu Kosan is in the process of mass producing them [0][1] as is LG [7], and both Japan+SK are FTA partners with the EU.

      [0] - https://www.chiyodacorp.com/en/projects/solidelectrolytefaci...

      [1] - https://battery-tech.net/battery-markets-news/idemitsu-kosan...

      [2] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.shtml

      [3] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362200.shtml

      [4] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.shtml

      [5] - https://www.ft.com/content/5903318c-319b-426e-b05d-062f7620f...

      [6] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/eu-lawmakers-rebuke-chin...

      [7] - https://blog.lgchem.com/en/2026/03/25_solid_state_battery/

  • hijinks 14 minutes ago
    let me guess.. but its 2x the price?
    • hnav 4 minutes ago
      no, but requires introduces brushes (slip-rings really) which is a wear item
  • derac 1 hour ago
    https://youtu.be/FHufjrP0xDI?is=xmFQrXGa1dBHM67I

    This is a helpful explanation of what this technology is and looks like. (Munro)

    • lowbloodsugar 8 minutes ago
      It was a dude with motors on a table with a flip board. No animations. No diagrams. When it got to the point about having one of each motor, and using the best, he then said that you use the permanent motor even when the other makes sense. Ok, well then why have the two different kinds of motors? No answer. Just handwaved. If you can't use the induction motor when its most efficient, because thats when the permanent motor is causing spin loss, why have the induction motor at all? No answer.

      So. Analog presentation. Actual motors on a desk with a flip chart. No animations. No internal visualizations. One page had diagrams that would have been better super-imposed (or hey, animated). Then one page the begs questions with no answers given.

  • alephnerd 1 hour ago
    Mentioned in another HN thread [0]:

    They're also used by Nissan [1], BMW [2], and Indian EVs [3].

    European firms like ZF, Valeo, MAHLE, and Schaffler along with British firms like AEM have been working with their Indian JVs as well as Indian players like Sona Comstar and Sterling for a couple years now to integrate supply chains for mass-producing EESMs.

    EESMs as well as the larger OEM story played a role in helping land the EU-India and the UK-India FTAs because the supply chains for French+Italian (Renault, Stellantis), Japanese (Toyota, Honda, Suzuki), Korean (Hyundai-Kia), and Indian automotive manufacturers merged.

    On the other hand, EESM EVs aren't a thing here in North America nor China yet as both primarily use PMSMs (edited typo).

    [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48510402

    [1] - https://leandesign.com/nissan-ariya-magnet-free-motor-teardo...

    [2] - https://www.bmwblog.com/2025/02/20/bmw-gen6-electric-motors-...

    [3] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/india-revs-up-alternate-...

    ---

    Edit: can't reply

    > does Nissan still use these motors, the car in the linked article has been discontinued

    Yes. The Ariya was discontinued in North America but is still manufactured and sold in Asia.

    > European and Indian manufacturers/engineering are definitely not in the same category though

    It's the same manufacturers and supply chain now.

    Renault and their OEMs are the biggest driver for EESM, and Renault's largest markets and manufacturing hubs are France, India, and Romania. Heck, Renault is now going to start exporting it's Made in India cars and parts back to the EU [0] becuase of the EU-India FTA.

    And the European OEMs have transferred the IP for EESMs to Indian JVs as I mentioned. It's the same style of tech transfer as Samsung did for BYD and TDK for CATL for battery chemistry in the 2000s. Heck, Valeo [1], MAHLE [2], and ZF [3] are opening factories and R&D hubs dedicated to EV transmission manufacturing in India for domestic and export usecases.

    Also, if you've ever driven a Japanese (Toyota, Honda, Suzuki) or Korean (Hyundai, Kia) make care in the EU, Middle East, or Asia outside of their home countries their parts sourcing and even the entire manufactured car would have come from India, such as the Toyota Urban Cruiser EV [4].

    [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/auto/auto-news/india-eu...

    [1] - https://www.valeo.com/en/valeo-inaugurates-new-electric-powe...

    [2] - https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/auto-technolo...

    [3] - https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/release_66050.html

    [4] - https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-all-new-toyota-urban-cruiser/

    • analogpixel 29 minutes ago
      Not sure why this was voted down, it was the most useful comment here.

      does Nissan still use these motors, the car in the linked article has been discontinued, and then only real info I can find on their site about the leaf is about their ROCKIN' bose sound system/s

    • IlikeMadison 17 minutes ago
      European and Indian manufacturers/engineering are definitely not in the same category though.
    • AtlasBarfed 24 minutes ago
      what is a prsm? Do you mean pmsm?
  • dmitrygr 1 hour ago
    Seems to be: replace permanent Nd magnet with an electromagnet.
    • cyberax 56 minutes ago
      They even use regular carbon brushes to supply power to the magnet. Munro has a teardown video for a similar motor for Nissan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFmp9ODkCA8
    • dyauspitr 59 minutes ago
      So does it consume significantly more electricity?
      • cyberax 54 minutes ago
        Not really. The excitation power is a small fraction of the total.

        The problem is that it makes the rotor far less mechanically robust and also heavier. That's why these motors are less powerful.

  • Onavo 1 hour ago
    The main difference between this and your typical AC induction motors (also magnet free) is that this is a DC motor so you need a commutator. Your AC induction magnet free motors are very similar to drone motors in that you don't have any electrically active moving parts like slip rings and commutators. But for AC induction there will be a slight lag (known as slip).
    • maxerickson 55 minutes ago
      They are electronically commutated. The stator field is more or less variable AC.