Unicode's transliteration rules are Turing-complete

(seriot.ch)

61 points | by beefburger 19 hours ago

14 comments

  • SonOfLilit 1 hour ago
    This is not interesting in the way that "DNS parsing is turing complete" is interesting. Nobody can send you a unicode file and make you run an infinite loop or whatever.

    Within Unicode is defined a DSL used internally by the library implementers to define some business logic, like most DSLs it is turing complete. Anyone with the ability to make you run their rules file already has the ability to make you run arbitrary code (it's a software vendor for software you use).

    It's still always fun to find Weird Machines, but as they go, this one is not very weird (it's one of the known families of programming languages, the Mathematica language being the most well known example. The person who specified this most likely was aware that this is turing complete and it's the rules author's responsibility not to write infinite loops).

    • edelbitter 46 minutes ago
      > Nobody can send you a unicode file and make you run an infinite loop or whatever.

      I find it interesting/weird (that the spec is written in such unrestricted DSL) for pretty much that reason. They could send you input for rules that are in the spec, and hope you translated them to your programming language of choice in a fairly straightforward manner. Which may then have perfectly acceptable average runtime properties, whether you do it in UTF-8 or UTF-32 (fixed-width) space .. but a worst-case that can reliably be triggered with chosen input!

      recent example: https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/149079

  • beefburger 19 hours ago
    I've been wondering for a while if anything in Unicode could accidentally compute. It turns out that UTS #35 transliteration rules are Turing-complete. I show how to compute Collatz with just 3 rewrite rules running on stock ICU.
    • bielok 18 hours ago
      Huh, very interesting find, and very lean website (:
  • anankaie 3 hours ago
    At this point it feels more difficult to ensure that your format cannot compute than to ensure it can
  • NooneAtAll3 3 hours ago
    reminds me of Word's autocorrect being turing-complete https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlX_pThh7z8 (3:57, but whole video is fun)
  • ks2048 2 hours ago
    Does the Latin-Katakana example given imply that some input value can cause it to not terminate?
  • linzhangrun 3 hours ago
    Waiting for someone to vibe a compiler targeting Unicode transliteration rules...
  • hyperhello 2 hours ago
    Does this mean I could post some untransliterated text here in a comment and make your browsers all do these computations?
    • omoikane 31 minutes ago
      I don't think most browsers enable transliteration out of the box.

      Lynx does[1], but it does that using iconv, which I think doesn't use UTS #35 transliteration rules.

      [1] https://lynx.invisible-island.net/lynx2.9.3/CHANGES.html#:~:...

    • ks2048 2 hours ago
      I could be wrong, but I don't think it's common for websites to just transliterate any text they're given. Let's check: ウィキペディア
    • ars 58 minutes ago
      Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I think it's not the text that is unicode complete, it's the transliteration rules that are.

      Unless you install special rules you won't be doing extra computation.

  • dvt 2 hours ago
    Who implements transliteration rules? I assume operating systems? Or text renderers?
    • kccqzy 2 hours ago
      The ICU library. It’s so ubiquitous that it’s somewhat difficult to avoid this library if you are doing anything advanced with human text.
  • sgjohnson 2 hours ago
    reminded me of the PowerPoint Turing Machine

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8

  • cyberax 1 hour ago
    So... Who's porting Doom to run on this?
  • est 3 hours ago
    Does it work on modern OS or just PyICU ?
  • quotemstr 33 minutes ago
    From a computer science POV, it's spooky how Turing-completeness arises spontaneously out of the most mundane data-processing machines. You look at UTS#35, see "Transforms provide a set of rules for transforming text via a specialized set of context-sensitive matching rules." and think, "Ah! Rewrite rules! Those are often Turing-complete! Maybe this one is too!".

    And so it is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system#Undecidabilit...).

    It's a scary and wonderful part of our world that you can bootstrap so much complexity out of a little iterated self-reference.

    My only quibble with the article is in this line...

    > The surprise is that it lives in a data format for locale files, shipped in every OS, whose specification doesn't mention the possibility.

    ... I'm not surprised. After all, the processor that interprets the data format is Turing-complete not only in its instructions, but in the page table! See https://github.com/jbangert/trapcc

    If anything, when you build a system and it starts to get complex, you have to go out of your way to ensure it's decidable and can't accidentally bootstrap the universe.

  • i18nagentai 1 hour ago
    [flagged]