Late Bronze Age Collapse

(acoup.blog)

125 points | by dmonay 2 hours ago

8 comments

  • evanjrowley 1 hour ago
    Seems to be a popular topic.

    Historian Eric H. Cline has multiple books citing this time period, specifically 1117 BCE as the inflection point for the bronze age "collapse", defined by a deterioration of international shipping routes that weakened the nation-states of the era. I've learned about it recently because YouTube began recommending videos about it.

    For example: https://youtu.be/choxcHXhZhE?is=t5lDwQQpqPsE2k5M

    One historical event that Cline focuses on is a severe centuries-long drought. It's something the ACOUP article seems to omit. Cline does not focus as much on destruction of bronze-age sites although there is one port city in particular which is linked to the international trade of the time. Exactly who destroyed it appears to be a mystery but it could be linked to the migration theory that ACOUP dismisses. The migration may have actually come as a result of the previously mentioned drought.

    • Brendinooo 1 hour ago
      It injects some really interesting color into the Tanakh/Old Testament - I'm not sure anyone has definitively lined up the Bronze Age Collapse with Biblical events, but it sure seems to have happened somewhere between the Exodus and King David.

      One can easily see the events leading to the Exodus being enabled by (or causing, depending on who you ask!) the weakening of Egypt, and the period in Joshua and Judges describes a power vacuum: no centralized king over the area, lots of back-and-forth struggles for control; as the Philistines, sometimes referred to by historians as an actual group of the Sea Peoples, often impose their will with instruments of iron.

      • simiones 51 minutes ago
        The Exodus is an entirely fictional account though, it's not based on any real historical events. Even King David seems to be mostly mythical, though there is some vague evidence of a "House of David" being something some real kings claimed descent from.

        Edit: I should say "almost entirely fictional". The main scholarly agreement is that it may record some stories of some small numbers (hundreds, at most some thousands - nowhere near the 600k in the Bible) real semitic slaves' escape from Egypt and migration to the area of Canaan, mixing with the local Canaanite population that were the precursors of the Jewish populations of later Israel and Judah.

        • BurningFrog 2 minutes ago
          Are you saying we have no evidence that Exodus happened, or that we have real evidence that it did NOT happen?
        • Brendinooo 22 minutes ago
          I tried to word my original comment in a way that allows a broad range of opinions to make a narrow point; I don't think anything you've said here refutes anything I said. I'm not really here to kick off a serious apologetics fight, though if you want me to engage on your thoughts I could.

          (And of the things I mentioned, the Exodus is less likely to line up with the Bronze Age Collapse's chronology anyways. But personally, I think the book of Judges very much feels set in the kind of post-apocalyptic world that the Collapse would have created.)

        • bazoom42 25 minutes ago
          We dont know that.
    • darkfloo 1 hour ago
      Shameless plug for my favourite YouTuber of all time https://youtu.be/aq4G-7v-_xI?si=GviYcvEtOAJ1mln7
    • pfdietz 1 hour ago
      The drought explanation seems particularly plausible for the Hittites, IMO. They had grain storage, but ~3 years of drought would exhaust that. So if the climate becomes just a bit drier the chance of such a three year run increases enough to likely crash their society.

      Today we have a huge buffer from the large use of grain to feed animals. In a crisis it could be diverted as human food, with some effort. Large geographic range from global shipping also smooths out blips. Still, a Toba-like eruption would be bad news.

      • stymaar 1 hour ago
        > Today we have a huge buffer from the large use of grain to feed animals.

        This, plus the gigantic amount of agricultural land being used for biofuel production (almost as much as cattle food).

        • bryanlarsen 53 minutes ago
          The standard counter-argument is that the corn grown for animal feed and for ethanol production is not suited for human consumption.

          But that's only partially true. We wouldn't eat it directly -- it could still be turned into masa or sugar or some other processed food and then eaten.

          • reactordev 37 minutes ago
            The corn grown that’s not for human consumption is only because it’s earmarked for feed or biofuels. Corn is corn. Where I live, 1 in 4 fields is “for human consumption”
            • Retric 6 minutes ago
              Filed corn is harvested at a different time resulting in a dryer product.

              But yes if people get hungry enough, field corn easily qualifies as actual food.

            • inigyou 26 minutes ago
              Aren't there different varieties of corn?
              • reactordev 25 minutes ago
                Yes, and they are all edible. But not all are palatable.
        • throwaway27448 6 minutes ago
          Who ever thought the idea of biofuel was a good one? Is it just as much a blatant jobs program as it seems?
      • idiotsecant 1 hour ago
        It's unlikely that rich countries would experience famine as severely as poor ones and consequently they would probably still demand meat. Grain that could feed people would still feed livestock.
        • bryanlarsen 1 hour ago
          A draw down of animal stocks increases meat supply in the short term. As grain gets more expensive, farmers sell animals for meat rather than keeping them to reproduce.
          • stymaar 1 hour ago
            But “As grain gets more expensive” middle eastern countries (that rely almost entirely on import for their grain source) would start facing grain shortage (due to balance of payment issues) or at least severe deprivation of the poorer part of their population.

            The Tunisian, Egyptian, Syrian and Libyan revolutions didn't occur at the same moment out of coincidence…

    • icegreentea2 1 hour ago
      I don't think Bret (the author of ACOUP) omits drought - he leads his section on plausible theories with "period of drying and consistent crop failures". While Bret dismisses the out to in migration/invasion theory, he does support the idea of intra-region migration/warfare (perhaps induced by drought/crop failures).
    • DicIfTEx 1 hour ago
      The fantastic Fall of Civilizations podcast also had an episode about it: https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2019/01/21/episode-2-...
      • pixl97 1 hour ago
        Ha, beat me too it. FoC is a great channel.
    • the-smug-one 1 hour ago
      Eric Cline has an interview on "Tides of History" podcast.
    • ape4 1 hour ago
      I think it's a popular topic because so many people are wondering when our civilization will fall.
    • forlorn_mammoth 1 hour ago
      > deterioration of international shipping routes

      like a closing of a certain straight that was essential for a large percentage of a necessary resource?

  • timbits98 1 hour ago
    Given the era, it seems likely that the collapse was the work of multiple angry gods. The author doesn't cover this possibility.
    • lokar 4 minutes ago
      The closest to that would be the ideas in “ the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind”
    • mr_toad 27 minutes ago
      The people of that era would have thought so. The Iliad and the Odyssey (if they have any basis in reality) might be examples of that period seen through a lens of mythology.
      • bazoom42 20 minutes ago
        How so? Are the Greek the sea people then?
        • mr_toad 12 minutes ago
          Myths don’t have natural or human causes. Instead you have wars caused by divine rivalry (e.g. the Judgement of Paris).

          Maybe Troy was actually destroyed by the Sea Peoples, but that probably wouldn’t make as much at the box office.

    • fuzzfactor 23 minutes ago
      People have always downplayed the number of things their gods can get angry about, while it often escalates beyond sustainability.

      >Late Bronze Age Collapse

      It was a little late but it had to happen sooner or later.

      For those in power there may not be many other opportunities to set the standard for archaic leadership, so better get it while they can.

      As we have seen :\

  • Amorymeltzer 58 minutes ago
    Patrick Wyman—of the Tides of History podcast—just put out a new book, Lost Worlds, which is worth a read if this is your bag. The basic premise is that the way ancient history is typically taught, "that we moved linearly from foraging to farming, and then from country farmers to city-dwelling, tax-paying subjects of kings and emperors," is essentially wrong. He goes on:

    >All of those developments occurred in an orderly sequence: First farming and village life arrived; then surpluses born of human achievement that created social inequality; then hierarchies with priests and chieftains at the top; then massive monuments, cities, states, and writing to keep track of it all. Geographically, the old story of those developments centered on the Fertile Crescent of western Asia, and to a lesser extent the Nile Valley of Egypt....

    >That story is wrong in some respects and incomplete in far more.

    It's a constant rise and fall, with innovations and cities/civilizations that both did and didn't succeed often equally valid and appropriate paths to take. Sounds kind of bog-standard, I guess, but it's rife with examples of "Oh yeah here's a 1,500 year-old city, but it was 7,000 years ago and then disappeared so you've never heard of it."

  • bee_rider 32 minutes ago
    Our favorite pedant should have a new post up today, I think he posts in the afternoon though. At least, checking in the morning and saying “ah, dang, the acoup post hasn’t come out yet, maybe I’ll reread an old one…” is a Friday morning ritual for me.
  • lordleft 1 hour ago
    Beware the Sea Peoples
    • forinti 1 hour ago
      There's a Portuguese saying "há mouro na costa" which is literally "there are moor at the coast" and means that there is something fishy going on.
      • hackyhacky 1 hour ago
        The Moors existed about 1900 years after the Sea People of the Bronze Age.
        • nkrisc 1 hour ago
          I don’t think they’re implying the moors are responsible for the Bronze Age collapse, merely drawing parallels.
    • evanjrowley 1 hour ago
      In an alternate timeline, The Sea Peoples are Romans sailing to England, the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans. Things became fuzzy when the English themselves became other civilization's Sea Peoples.
      • appreciatorBus 1 hour ago
        I would wager that almost every civilization has been some other civilization’s sea people at some point in it’s history.
        • mr_toad 20 minutes ago
          If invaders appear out of ‘nowhere’, it’s usually by boat or on horseback.
        • stymaar 1 hour ago
          Well, at least not civilizations where dreams dry up.
  • onion2k 1 hour ago
    The Bronze Age was the third best age.
    • inigyou 24 minutes ago
      The Iron Age can be researched at your Town Center, but the Post-Iron Age isn't a real age, it's just an extra setting on the map settings menu that starts you in the Iron Age with everything already researched.
    • dn3500 1 hour ago
      After the one where humans first harnessed water power, the Dam Age, and when we started wearing clothes, the Garb Age.
  • usumgallu 54 minutes ago
    [dead]